Open source DotA (nostalgia inducing discussion)

The Warcraft III World Editor is a very powerful tool.

Open source DotA (nostalgia inducing discussion)

New postby 3ICE on Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:48 am

Discussion started on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1142617542437784/permalink/1145185502180988/
(Notice: Closed group, an invite is required to join) I'm publishing it here for the world to see (all names except mine removed just in case they want to protect their privacy)

The initial two comments that started it all:
• I want an open-dota map the latest,.., if u have upload pls
• I thought dota maps cannot be opened~~

My response(s):
• Daniel Berezvai: Anything can be opened if you try hard enough. I have deprotected lots of "impossible" maps back in my prime. For money of course. But I recommend using one of the many open source DotA clones instead. They're free and well documented. Some are, naturally, found to be more feature complete than others. Try several.
• Daniel Berezvai: I remember contributing to the english version of opendota.xgm.ru (the project is dead now though)
• Daniel Berezvai: Here is a copy of the website (not the latest version, but good enough), preserved for the future: http://wayback.archive.org/.../http://opendota.xgm.ru/
• Daniel Berezvai: And if you are interested in reading about the how and the why of "maps that cannot be opened", then here is my map protection tutorial that eventually devolved into a paid map deprotection service (check the 400+ comments below for examples): http://www.3ice.hu/blog/protect-warcraft-maps/

This thread is so awesome (the nostalgia hit me hard):
http://playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1384464 (archive.org version saved by me)
Especially the three snarky responses by now banned "6.79" (I wish he wasn't! What a fun guy... He's just like me.)
And I quote:
Originally Posted by 6.79
Originally Posted by Super-sheepAnd then everyone makes their own fake versions of it and starts spreading them on their host bots like cancer.

It would not be so easy to add your own content in.

There's a lot of stuff to update if you want to add new content in and have it bug free for the most part.

Do people these days even know how to edit a map?

I imagine the code will also be too all over the place to everyone besides the main developers, which would act as a discouraging thing to those wanting to add or modify it.

Would people know how to optimise the map and Widgetize it so that you can play it online and have it load fast enough?

I do wonder how long it would take to even SAVE the map.

Do people know how to import loading screens and map-preview, or even icons in proper format (ReplaceableTextures\\CommandButtons\\BTNButton.bl p etc)?

If you are able to edit to your pleasing, then you can go around distributing it as you will. But I doubt many people will be able to do so, for it to cause a problem.

I don't think people would even bother with hostBots even if they knew how to edit it. It'll still be mainly just the official DotA.


Originally Posted by 6.79
Originally Posted by Super-sheepPlease stop talking like the majority of people would be idiots who cant use simple tools or I report you.

Go ahead and report me then.

Even if they can use 'simple tools' such as Pitzermike's Widgetizer or Vexorian's Optimizer, how many will know how to edit JASS proficiently (apparently DotA also uses vJass too, which would also require JassNewGen -- but from the code I can't see what aspects of vJass it even uses. Structs? I can't find any alloc/dealloc algorithms, but I digress)?

Further, Warcraft III has been on decline since a long time ago. Starcraft II dawned a community shift and the advent of Dota 2 also contributed to the decline. If we take it back many years ago, perhaps a different story.

To put in words similar to yours,
Please stop talking like editing JASS is something the majority of people can do.

Please stop talking like Warcraft III and fake maps are pertinent or relevant.
On the balance of probabilities, it is unlikely the issue you raised as an objection to this idea will be likely to manifest.


Originally Posted by 6.79
Originally Posted by Super-sheepAnd its... what? 10 year old game?

And dont say that it takes years.. If you learned software development you can quickly get into JASS or anywhere and some people even started from straight there and its not like they had to sacrifice their children or something to achieve that.

I'm now suddenly curious as to whether anyone would actually bother to get into JASS and map editing if IceFrog released the open source.

That would be.. interesting



I think we should consider the effects this has, both positive and negative:

PROS:
AI maps are perhaps easier to do.
Testmaps can be made demonstrating a hero in the current DotA scenario.
Advanced Mechanics people can have an easier job answering questions concerning the map itself. Also they can submit trigger information much easier as they won't be reading obfuscated JASS (which hurts one's sanity temporarily).
People can edit the terrain themselves and post terrain change suggestions.
Unobfuscated code can be educational.
For the curious minded, they could be satisfied.

CONS:
People can edit it and upload it. BUT:
Optimising the map. Do people know how to do this? Otherwise the map will be high in memory size compared to currently.
It won't matter. Simply go to getdota.com. If you must download the map then clearly it must be fake (also if everyone else has to download it).
It would require some effort to edit the map and knowledge. If it uses vJass (which I heard it does), that automatically gets rid of a bunch of the population as people don't know how to use NewGen, what it is or a vJass to Jass compiler. If it doesn't use vJass, do people even know how to modify JASS? They can't add new stuff to the map easily and make it work bugless. For example, items. Do they know that every item has a unit equivalent to create the feature where you can purchase with full inventory?
If you can edit the behemoth that the DotA map is, then you must be already insane and do no damage to the public anyway.
It could inspire creativity and other derivations (such as the LoD and Imba maps).

Warcraft III is dead compared to years ago in terms of wc3 modding. DotA already killed any competition about 9 years ago (Tides of Blood stopped development ). Releasing it now won't do any harm as no one knows what to do with it or how to even touch it.


The rest of the comments are a fun read too. There was even a discussion on COPPA rules which I found intriguing. Here is a single comment as an example:
Originally Posted by 6.79Well, if you are referring to your physical age as being under 12, they ban you. Despite it being a popular meme, they will enforce it. But you stated it in the context of Warcraft 3 modding years, so you'll be fine.
Lesson learned. Never jokingly post stuff like "I'm 9 and what is this?" or you'll get mercilessly banned. (For the record I am older than 13. Leave me alone Mr. COPPA.)
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Re: Open source DotA (nostalgia inducing discussion)

New postby 3ICE on Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:00 pm

3ICE[...]
Originally Posted by 6.79Warcraft III is dead compared to years ago in terms of wc3 modding. DotA already killed any competition about 9 years ago (Tides of Blood stopped development ). Releasing it now won't do any harm as no one knows what to do with it or how to even touch it.
What? Something stopped development? Oh no. Let me check that out then before it disappears...
Turns out, the Tides of Blood forum is awesome too!
http://www.tidesofblood.com/
I hope it never dies.
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Re: Open source DotA (nostalgia inducing discussion)

New postby DieKralle on Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:15 am

Rest in Peace Warcraft 3. The good years that I will never forget. But it is true because all the modding and hostboting. I can remember the days where everyone has hosted there own games (I can still host games without a hostbot but sadly no one joins). Legends of map making where born example Kueken from Hero Line Wars or EDU.
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Re: Open source DotA (nostalgia inducing discussion)

New postby 3ICE on Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:05 am

I'm not ready to bury WC3 just yet. And it seems neither is Blizzard; new / recently released Patch 1.27! It's been like what, five years since the last version? I should know, I run http://www.3ice.hu/blog/patch-warcraft/ ...
Yes it put a small bump in my operations, meaning all my bots have been offline ever since. But I'm working on the update and also migrating everything to a new machine at the momentous opportunity of a new patch.

p.s.: Also, 1.27a is coming today
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Re: Open source DotA (nostalgia inducing discussion)

New postby DieKralle on Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:24 pm

Im not ready to bury Warcraft 3 to, but I mean these hostbots have taken over Warcraft 3. If Blizzard would do something about the bots then maybe just maybe more players would come playing again (And I can host my Maze also do you have any results ?).
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Re: Open source DotA (nostalgia inducing discussion)

New postby BugMeNot on Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:33 am

He averages 10-20 games per session. You need to sit in your host bot lobby and engage each player as they join. It's hardly worth the effort...
This is a guest account intended for use by people who wish to remain anonymous or hate registering.
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Re: Open source DotA (nostalgia inducing discussion)

New postby DieKralle on Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:41 pm

In the old days people are waiting up to 1 hour for players to join and fill up the lobby. But now players join the lobby and see that the lobby is not filled up and leave immediately. We need to message Blizzard about this problem or otherwise Warcraft 3 The Reign of Chaos and Warcraft 3 The Frozen Throne will not be the same anymore. And I engage every player that joins to wait till more players join.
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Re: Open source DotA (nostalgia inducing discussion)

New postby 3ICE on Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:45 pm

THW recently did an excellent job of doing just that. Hope it's an important issue to Blizzard as well.

Edit: I often try to engage players, but half of them don't seem to care. Experimenting with a "completely silent bot" configuration was no help either.
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